From Gospel Preacher to Good Atheist

My Early Years

Growing up, I was a typical American kid. I had a brother and a
sister, a loving mom and dad, and we were taught to believe in
Christianity, America's status quo faith. Mom and dad were not
religious fanatics, but they were mild fundamentalists who
believed that Christianity was the only way and that no one could
have the highest morality without belief in the Christian God. I
swallowed this philosophy hook, line, and sinker from day one,
though I didn't become a baptized believer until my eighteenth
birthday.

I was converted for the same reason that many others were -- I
was at a time in my life when I needed emotional and
psychological support. I had fought my own battles with
depression growing up, but when Christianity came along, that
was the end of my singing the blues! Finding something to
believe in is a big part of the psychological make up of the
individual. I had also just fallen out of a relationship with a girl and
this made me begin to "look upward" for help like I'd never done
before. I was a party-goer, by and large, but I knew that
someday, I would have to give up my selfish life and become a
part of what I was taught God told me to do -- to be baptized and
live as a Christian. I remember how it felt to start looking for
answers in the bible and pray like I never had before. I was a
changed man at my conversion one cold February morning in
1994. What I felt Christ did for me was all too apparent in my mind.
I decided to live for him since he gave so much for me, and I was
so thankful that I had escaped the eternal flames of Hell that
awaited me for my former lifestyle's conduct! From then on, my
life would change in ways I never imagined.

During the first year of my conversion, I read the bible through,
bought perhaps 50 apologetic books and Christian evidence
materials, and read them through nearly at the pace of one book
per night. Nothing else seemed important to me anymore except
the study of God's word. I was a living, breathing, scripture
quoting machine. Only a couple of months after my conversion, I
found that I had an easier time memorizing than anyone I knew,
so I put this skill to work. This came in handy as I became a
determined personal evangelist.

From me, no one was safe from an argument on religion! I'd
talked to everyone I knew, beginning with my close family, my
friends, and my acquaintances, and they all knew where I stood
on the issues: Jesus was the way, Genesis is accurate in all its
teachings (and literal too), and only those in the Lord's true
church (the Church of Christ to which I belonged) would be saved
on the last day. I went door to door for multiple blocks, talking to
every soul I could find. I had to save them from the fires of Hell
like I had been saved. I sure made a lot of people mad at me
who didn't want to hear it! I had two college professors walk away
from me after I basically refused to let them leave their
classrooms in arguments from what they said during class. I had
a math professor tell me, "Listen, I'm not going to convert to your
religion, guy!" I remember another teacher saying to me, "I'm
happy with my church. I don't need another!" This little crusade of
mine continued until a year and a half after my conversion when I
decided to enter preaching school and officially prepare myself
for the work I had ahead. Secular college was much too worldly
and "evil" for me, so preaching school shined out as my only real
option.

Let it be clear that the Church of Christ is an ultra-fundamentalist
group, far more conservative than even the most stubborn
protestant churches out there: so conservative, in fact, that
members of my group were constantly withdrawing fellowship
from each other and our sister congregations that disagreed with
us over greater or lesser points. According to our group, an
unscriptural marriage, a second marriage without meeting the
scriptural standards of God, constituted adultery, and therefore,
had to be broken up, even if there were children involved. Of
course, no one could be saved outside of our group and every
detail of the scriptures was the absolute word of God and had to
be true! Using musical instruments during church services was
wrong and sinful and Hell would be the penalty for it if done! The
God of the Church of Christ was a very legally-minded God,
indeed. Even a sincere candidate making his way to the
baptistery out of faith to obey God, should he die, would find
himself in Hell because he had to get immersed to get any
forgiveness (Acts 2:38).

Beginning Ministerial Training

I began attending the Southwest School of Bible Studies in 1995
and graduated in 1997. This well respected, 216 hour preparation
for my preaching work taught me a lot about every area of the
work of the minister. It was a thorough walk-through of every book
and chapter of the bible, preaching protocol, and particularly, the
fact and the how of bible apologetics. That is, the bible needed a
lot of defending. It brood so much controversy and conflict on
every level of thought that it needed scholars at its aide. But my
best arguing experience came from real life, from running into
people with radically different beliefs than mine and learning how
to defend my position over theirs. I ran into the Mormons and
Jehovah Witnesses, the Baptists and Adventists, the Catholics
and Greek Orthodox, the infidels and mystics, the psychics and
the Buddhists, and the typical "unchurched" folk who weren't
interested in religion, one way or the other. To me they all didn't
make sense. With each encounter, I became more and more
confident that my faith was the right one to have. Every debate I
watched or heard, I found that my side seemed to make the
better points and this bothered me a little because I felt that I
didn't understand the opposing side's views well enough. This
demanded yet more study.

In heart, I have always been a bit of a rationalist, even back then.
I felt the need for compelling evidence to back up a claim,
especially in a world of religions where so many flimflam artists
are at work. So it bothered me when I heard others express the
"just have faith" aspect of religion. Others, most people, in fact,
weren't like me. They didn't care like I did if a claim made sense
or not. If their parents said it, if the bible said it, if they had heard it
for a long enough time, then it was true, period. I kept trying to
understand why the faith of most people wasn't as urgent a thing
to them as my faith was to me. This led me to believe even more
so that I was truly converted and most of those around me were
not. But even among my own brethren, so many seemed to not
be as flexible with their views as I thought they should be. Very
few of them would stick their necks out in an argument like I would
and put their faith on the line: "Prove to me that my religion is
wrong and I'll convert to the right one tonight." I didn't see this
attitude very often and this worried me. Throughout my ministry, I
remember watching and reading debates just to prove myself
wrong, though this never happened early on. It seemed I could
never get to a point in my mind where I just accepted I had truth.
My quest for answers was unending.

Preaching life begins

After graduating from seminary in 1997, I held down four
preaching works until my resignation as minister in 2003. In
August of 1997, I began my first work. I didn't end up staying there
long on account of financial reasons. The church couldn't afford
to pay me enough, so after six months, my wife and I headed out
for work number two. I spent two years at this church and learned
a lot about human nature and people's unwillingness to change.

Throughout my Christian life, I always had little doubts that
bothered me from conversion onward. They were small doubts
that made my stomach burn from time to time, but I would study
them away before they became a problem. It was towards the
end of this work (in 1999) that I began to experience doubts a little
harder. This was the time in my life that I began to first question
prayer.

On one occasion, our church diligently prayed that a dear elderly
sister with cancer get better. She seemed to improve as her
cancer went into remission for a while and I considered this a true
evidence of prayer, until a year later when the cancer relapsed
and she died quite suddenly! God was really working there! From
then on, it was as though my mind kept a log of unanswered
prayers and the results always seemed to be 50/50 at best. This
was my beginning of questioning what I believed, though I didn't
acknowledge it altogether. It was just in the back of my mind. I
prided myself on being able to "answer" infidel arguments, but I
would later find that my study of evidence on these issues was
one sided. Up till now, my knowledge pool was theological and
Christian. I had no way to reason outside of the box. I could only
arrive at Christian conclusions because that was my worldview.
So I decided to take a little harder look at the other side.

I began acquiring some other books, this time books on the
natural sciences and freethought. I began with Thomas Paine,
George H. Smith, and Ingersoll (to name just a few), and my
library expanded monthly. Plus, I began to take a closer look at
astronomy, cosmology, geology, and microbiology. I was
beginning to get a different picture of the world than my bible was
giving me. But even now that I was broadening my horizons, my
faith was still not in any danger of being destroyed just yet. I still
readily and fervently opposed, like a true, belligerent fanatic,
anyone (including those in the books I read), who opposed
fundamentalist Christianity. It would take time to see a better way.

2000 rolls around and the doubts worsen

Before I knew it, the summer of 2000 had rolled around. I was at
my third preaching work now and the work of God in the local
church went on as normal. It was a hot night in August as a guest
speaker addressed my congregation in regard to his missionary
work that we were supporting overseas. I had been fighting away
my doubts successfully up until this point, but this was about to
change. Behind him was the screen where he showed us a video
of the work that the brethren were doing in India. The pagans
were pulling apart a bull in a town square in honor of a pagan
god.
"It is unfortunate that this sort of pagan worship goes on in
the world today, but it does, and we must remember as Christians
that these souls are lost without the gospel. If people can be
saved without it, then we are wasting our time and money trying to
save souls."
It was as though time stopped for me at that
moment. The speaker's words made my heart race like never
before, even though I had preached and heard the same
message a thousand times by now. But unlike before, I was now
actually thinking of the implications of what I believed!

According to my God, these ignorant, bull-slaughtering, heathens
were going to be condemned to eternal fire to burn forever, and
yet so many of them had lived and died under their own wrong
pagan ways and laws for countless generations. It wasn't right for
God to put them in Hell for simply living in ignorance as they had
been taught. I felt like a twerp with my no-other-way-to-salvation
gospel, futilely trying to convert a people who already had a
belief system and a culture to direct their lives. My heart began
pounding and I began to sweat. I was beginning to think for
myself and not just sweep every lost person into a secret
compartment in my mind, never to be thought about again (as I
had been doing). This Hell idea I had been preaching was
starting to seem like a terrible thing. Though I wouldn't have
admitted it, I never could harmonize the concept of hell with the
concept of a merciful God, especially when God could easily
rehabilitate sinners or just blot them out of existence. After all, you
get rid of a sick dog, you don't torture it, right?

But this posed a dilemma; if God could choose to save some
lost souls without the gospel, then he must do the same for
everyone lest he be branded a respecter of persons (Acts
10:34-35), in which case, his word would not always be true (John
10:35). Or, if it is as the bible says, and literally no one can be
saved without the gospel, then you have the uncomfortable and
unjust position of making God a tyrant who condemns helpless
and ignorant pagans who never heard of Jews or Jesus or the
Christian Church (Luke 12:4-5; Mark 16:16; Matthew 7:21-23; John
14:6). There is no way to answer this dilemma and maintain both
the soundness of God's word and the mercy of God. I used to be
content explaining this by saying that since God himself was the
only immutable standard of morality, then he could do whatever
he wanted with souls and his will would be "good" and ours
would be "bad," but this no longer resolved the problem in my
mind. Now the idea of eternal torment started to seem like the
truly malicious thing it was. God was running a "little shop of
horrors" all his own! The more I thought about it, I wasn't so sure I
wanted to serve a monster capable of such cruelty. It would take
time, but this would soon begin to interfere with my evangelism
efforts.

Not a month had passed by until I found myself working late one
night at the church building. I spent all the time I had to prepare
bible classes and sermons, studying out bible discrepancies
and evidences for and against evolution, instead. My doubts,
though not unmanageable, were starting to interfere with my work,
and things would finally reach the breaking point by the next year.
Looking back now, I can see it all clearly. My experience tells me
it's the same with just about everyone; once you begin to think
critically and analyze what you are taught in the bible, faith will
eventually terminate in atheism.

My Last Work

The last church I preached at was my biggest work yet. I loved
preaching the gospel and had given my life to cherish and
defend it. I had so much on my plate with this new work: visitation,
counseling, prison correspondence, bulletin preparation,
preaching and teaching sermons and bible classes, and a
Sunday morning radio program. When I tried to look at this as a
wonderful thing, I still found that most of my time and effort was
being spent in apologetics. I found myself constantly explaining
away bible atrocities, such as the Midianites' extermination at the
hands of Israel (Numbers 31:15-18), and why God allowed bad
things to happen to good people. Answering the problem of evil
and innocent human suffering was a big thing to all churches
because it is a relevant question and every member of every
church worldwide has heard every preacher they know try to
explain it, but they all failed just like I did. The scriptural problems
never would quit coming at me. I was constantly explaining away
bible discrepancies, "patching up" the old book to make it fit a
skeptical, modern world. I was constantly explaining away many
errors in the text.

For instance, one passage says Ahaziah was 22 years old when
he began to reign and another passage says he was forty two (2
Kings 8:26 vs. 2 Chronicles 22:2). One text has Josiah dying in
Megiddo and another has him dying in Jerusalem (2 Kings
23:29-30 vs. 2 Chronicles 35:24). I was taught contradictions like
these were just "scribal errors" from copying mistakes in earlier
manuscripts. However, it didn't sit well with me that God did not
provide us with a spiritual roadmap that could be trusted without
having to go digging through a pile of human-penned
manuscripts to finally stumble upon what God actually intended
to say! It was difficult trying to find scientific truths in God's book,
while explaining away the many unscientific things that bothered
me, like flat earth passages such as Job 9:6 and I Samuel 2:8,
"the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world
upon them." The idea that striped rods produce striped offspring
in animals (Genesis 30:35-39), proved very difficult to explain,
and let's not forget the work I had to do in explaining what the
bible really meant when it mentioned those cud chewing rabbits
(Leviticus 11:6)!

I couldn't keep up with all the work I had to do to make Christianity
seem viable. This worsened my doubts and I started realizing
that the issues I was explaining away were valid discrepancies,
indeed, and my way of correcting these problems could be
applied to any false book, making it impossible to find a
contradiction in anything! I was using bad reasoning to find my
way out of erroneous conclusions, brought on by false bible
statements.

The doubts were now so bad I found myself having to take
mini-vacations, usually for a weekend or so, to clear my head
and ask myself where I stood on the issues. The problem was,
the vacations ended and I came right back to my problems! I
decided to use my off time to keep resolving my doubts. I prayed
and cried and stayed up late into the nights looking for those
magic resolutions that would shed light on my problems --
needless to say, they never came! Those feelings of depression
and loneliness, the feelings of fear of an angry God, were quite
troubling. Joe, the once-proud preacher of the gospel, was now
weak in faith and questioned the validity of the most esteemed
message on earth. I was hurting and doubting, and I still had no
evidence or experience with this God at all, yet all these years I
trusted and prayed to him and this seemed to justify my
worldview.

What had happened? Did I sin? Did I not pray sincerely enough?
Did I need to learn patience? Was my God going to burn me for
doubting when I couldn't help it and while I still wanted to continue
with him in full faith? Come to think of it, I couldn't even define this
god! I could tell you traits God had (omnipotence, omniscience,
omnipresence, omni-benevolence) and what God wasn't (a man,
a liar, etc. Numbers 23:19). I could even tell you that God was a
"perfect spirit entity" (John 4:24), but again, I had no experience
with a "spirit" entity. What was that? Was it matter? No. It can't be
matter because matter is a thing of the temporal universe, but
God was eternal, outside and above the universe. Therefore,
whatever God was, he was unknowable because he was outside
of the universe, but now my speech about God was again
rendered unintelligible. I might as well say that God is a
"dagegfqyeulm" or something?! So, I was forced to retreat back
into the safe-haven of illusive, theistic-agnostic jargon by saying
that "God is above our understanding. God is unknowable. We
would have to be God to understand him." Now I was right back
where I started -- with no answers! And if you think defining God is
hard, imagine trying to define a Trinitarian God (Matthew 28:19)!
As a minister, I would explain the trinity as water, steam, and ice --
three components making up one substance. This doesn't apply
very well to individuals, does it? Now I had three uncreated,
perfect, and infinite beings existing forever! This was an even
less intelligible idea!

Like a retard in the mall, I was lost and left to wander aimlessly,
playing the same old guessing game of finding what solution
would solve this problem and what God wanted me to do. My
spiritual world was turned upside down. Like most religious
people, Christians are very theatrical in their thinking, and so was
I. I kept imagining the drama that went on as Satan was before
God telling him I would fail the test, but that God was telling Satan
that I would pass it, just like Job's triumphant journey into greater
faith. I had to stay faithful! But, this disposition could only last so
long. The time comes when you develop the courage to admit to
yourself, "If there is a God, he sure has done a good job at
making a universe where so many like me can't see it." In such
dilemmas, you keep waiting for the right tract or email or book or
conversation from a friend to come along and set you straight,
but it never happens.

When 2002 came around, things were definitely changing. My
preaching work was now showing serious signs of sloppiness
and hurt. I stepped into that pulpit every Sunday and gave my
weekly motivational speeches and forgot about my doubts for
the time -- but they always came back! By mid-2002, I was a
virtual atheist undercover, trying to keep a paycheck coming and
almost resigned to finally accepting that my god had bailed on
me!

As one last measure, I decided to reach out to other ministers for
help. I went to their houses, swore them to secrecy, and unloaded
on them my issues. I had tried this a couple of times before with
no success, but I thought I'd try it again. They didn't understand
and actually attacked me viciously for asking them demanding
questions they only thought they had answers to. They tried to
come back with the same theistic hogwash I once so proudly
peddled, but those words had lost their power. The people I went
to for comfort ended up chiding me for a situation I wished I wasn't
in. Several of them refused to speak to me again. I was hurt and it
didn't take long to realize that I was on my own in this search.

I took any down time I had and investigated other world religions
more clearly than I had in the past. To sum up the matter, not one
of them struck me as divine and all of them seemed at least a
little more credible than the religion I promoted! No one of them
had any of the big answers to the world's problems and no one of
them could explain human suffering. None of the basic
philosophical arguments for God (the cosmological, teleological,
axiological arguments, etc.) were valid, and a thorough
investigation of the roots of Christianity revealed that it was not
unique at all.

Christianity was composed of borrowed components of many
religions. There were a myriad of virgin-born, savior-gods in the
world before Christ's time. Justin Martyr admits this much in his
work Apologia I. I found nothing but dishonesty in my preaching
comrades who showed no real interest in finding (or facing) the
truth. I came to see that all those shelves of creationist books
spoke for not so much as a microscopic part of the scientific
community and that even my preaching brethren with actual
degrees in the natural sciences rejected fully the scientific
consensus of the real experts' opinions on evolution and
cosmology. I had been listening to dishonest crackpots who
knew very little to nothing about what evolution really taught, and
yet they trashed it and taught nonsense just to support the
worldview of an archaic book that told of a six thousand year old
earth, had numerous contradictions, false prophecies, and a
plethora of errors. I was starting to see a bigger world out there
than my limited Christian worldview would allow for, and I was
starting to see that I needed to go back and relearn what little I
was taught about science, knowing that the sources I trusted
before were no good now.

There was no water canopy that surrounded the earth at creation
as I had been taught (Genesis 1:6-8). In an attempt to bolster the
credibility of the Noahic flood account (Genesis 6-8), I had been
told that many flood myths of cultures around the world existed.
This was true, but what I was not told was that a huge portion of
those myths were not stories of universal floods, but local floods
-- natural exaggerations from floods in history which came about
as fall off from our most recent ice age. Exaggerations like this
are to be expected as myths have always developed about
natural disasters. There are plenty of fire myths too. I also
learned that many of these flood sagas had virtually nothing in
common with each other; for instance, some flood legends, like
the Pygmy version of the myth, describe a flood as an act of a
god creating humanity in water. Other accounts, like that of the
Hopi Indians, have an impending flood averted. The Hebrews'
take on the flood was not unique and not original. Many flood
stories predate theirs. The Egyptians have detailed and reliable
records going back a long way, verifying that no flood occurred
some 5,000 years ago or round-abouts.

So, what I once thought supported the Genesis record actually
robbed it of credibility. Different races did not exist because
Noah had three sons that emerged from an ark and repopulated
the world (Genesis 9-11). The earth was not six thousand years
old. Languages did not originate from a mysterious separation of
peoples while building some tower to heaven (Genesis 11:1-9).
The pyramids of different cultures around the world were not built
in similar shapes because their ancestors came from the Tower
of Babel. They were built as pyramids simply because they had
no rebar or similar technology that would allow them to build
straight upward to support their own weight when multiple stories
were added to a structure.

I had been misinformed about the 2nd law of thermodynamics,
which is continually misapplied by creationists everyday. The
second law did not prevent or hinder evolution or an eternal
universe at all. I had been misinformed about DNA and the facts
of taxonomy, mutations, and genetic variants in species. I jumped
at the opportunity to know the truth now. My knowledge pool was
filling, and my worldview that was kept so small before and full of
intolerance and scientific illiteracy, was now growing, and with this
knowledge came peace like the bible only claimed to give me.

Too, I was realizing that morality which I thought was delegated
by a book, had nothing to do with religion. I was stunned to see
many different forms of morality all over my world. Almost all
higher forms of life showed the beginnings of culture, and to one
extent or another, forms of morality. The morality of my people
was a little different from the Head Hunters of Borneo, yet we had
a similar rule that said that it wasn't right to steal. This rule was
never given by a god. It was a result of rationality in species who
understood that stealing could never be allowed in structured
societies. Prides of lions have the same rule. It became apparent
that the greatest morality was not to do right for the bribe of a
reward (Heaven), or because of the threat of punishment (Hell),
but to do right for right's sake. This, to me, sums up higher
morality. Morality comes no more to man from a god than it does
from a god to a baboon to sacrifice himself to the leopard to
preserve the lives of his troop. Once again, I looked around and
saw a bigger, more natural world around me, a world that made
more sense.

The Finality

I never quit getting asked what it was that finally closed my door
of faith forever. If I had to pick a "nail in the coffin" that ended my
theological journey, I don't think I would be able to.
De-conversion takes time and a lot of thinking and rethinking. But
I suppose, if my feet were to the fire and I had to pick the biggest
blow, I would have to say that it came by way of understanding
the basic premise of the law of rationality. I was taught in school,
KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid! Look for the simplest answer first
and not the most complex. You've probably heard this too.
Logicians would call this principle, Occam's Razor -- in a
dilemma, pick the simplest answer whenever you can. I was
compelled as a freethinker to draw only those conclusions which
were warranted by the evidence. That meant that if I can explain
design by means of evolution, then I don't need a god. If I can
explain the construction of the bible on natural processes and
that it is of human origin, then I am not warranted to conclude that
a god wrote it. If I can look up at the stars at night, as I so fondly
do, and see a natural explanation for them, then it is pointless to
throw a god into the process somewhere.

Science had been replacing the god notion for centuries. Now
God only existed in the gaps of our knowledge of the world. I had
been holding back the progress of mankind by holding onto a
book that promised the world, but delivered nothing. It was the
very source of some of the problems it claimed to solve. I could
now embrace a more fulfilling and enlightening worldview. I could
now have a glass of wine without fear of eternal damnation and I
could breathe the fresh air of being honest with myself. I do not
expect that everyone can be an atheist. I am convinced that it will
not happen for a good many people because religion is a
psychological thing and many people just aren't ready to make
the leap to a purely material world, but as it was for me, so it will
be the right move for a good many religious thinkers who find no
stopping place short of rejecting theism.

I tried to resign from the ministry quietly, but the ministers I trusted
in made that impossible. September 28, 2003 was the date of my
resignation. I have never regretted that decision for a moment. In
fact, I look back now and wonder how I could ever have believed
in an angry tyrant of a god who brought unimaginable guilt and
fear of eternal torture on his children. It was hard for my wife (who
is still Christian) and my family to adjust to my new views, and it
was very difficult to hunt a new career, but it had to be done. I
don't have a single regret.

After I resigned, I was put on more prayer lists than I could
imagine -- a lot of good they did! I got my share of emotional
phone calls from ministers, friends, and members of the churches
I preached at before, pleading me to "hold on", telling me I was
too good a minister to leave the fold. Generally, I got the usual
thoughts from people who didn't understand my outlook and
made every effort to blame my change on all the wrong reasons:
"You were never really converted." "You were pushed into
preaching too soon." "You just had too strict a church and their
interpretation ruined you to real moderate Christianity." "You were
just frustrated by the brethren." "You are just going through a
phase, a sort of midlife crisis." But when I defended my decision
to leave, I quickly became the flaming heretic without hope of
saving: "You are evil!!" "Do you worship the devil now, Joe?"
"Joe, you have no morality!" "Will you beat me and take my
wallet now that you're an atheist, Joe?" They called me not
knowing what they were in for. It was almost funny to listen as they
got upset and tried to get off the phone as quickly as possible! At
least several preachers and long-time church friends, forbade
me to contact them ever again, and most of them haven't
reached out since, except for one, maybe.

Looking back now, I can remember sitting on my couch shortly
before my resignation and recalling the end of a movie I saw
years earlier, the 1991 movie Drop Dead Fred. It's a silly little flick
that focuses on a troubled girl who has an imaginary friend who
stays with her until this friend feels she has grown up enough to
be on her own. I can remember the emotion that ran through me
as I applied it to my situation. Drop Dead Fred says to her
towards the end of the movie, "I've got to leave you now. You
don't need me anymore." After that, the girl went on about her life
as a normal girl and Fred became some other little girl's
imaginary friend. For me, it was exactly as though my god, my
imaginary friend who was a stepping stone to help me develop
confidence and to reach out towards maturity in life, suddenly
said to me, "I've got to leave you now. You don't need me
anymore." It was sad at first, but I knew all along it was
necessary. I "grew up" in my mind. My imaginary friend was
gone. Santa Claus was dead. There was no ghost in the
machine. Pinocchio's strings had been cut. Cinderella's magic
carriage ran out of gas. My little green dragon I clutched so tightly
in my arms as a small child at bedtime was useless now.

My journey through Christianity and into atheistic freethought was
a journey of finding myself, and now I can say with great
confidence that I have. I am one small link in a long chain, and all
I can do is my little part to make my fellow links feel that much
happier and that much more loved. The standards of peace and
happiness I sought as I believer, I found as an atheist -- Who
would have thought?

What shocked me was that the evidences for materialism were
there all along, right in front of me, only I never noticed them
because of my former, religious delusions. Anyone who wanted
hard facts that would support a natural universe could find a good
number of evidences, if only they were willing to accept what they
saw. I could now aim to live out my life with self honesty and
intellectual dignity. I was never a "sinner" and didn't need a
savior. What I needed was truth and the liberty of enlightenment.

I found that life is not about Joe Holman, or planet earth, or my
wants and desires, or those of my family. Life is about change:
blind, but awesome, disappointing, but surprising, change. Life is
about being born, growing, and dying, for no purpose at all
except for the one we make for ourselves. Life is about the
evolution of all things, great and small, and in the process, it is as
though the universe, through us, developed a way to view itself.
For me, life is not the main event anymore. When my time on
earth is spent, I will enjoy my eternal sleep, the only place where
genuine, lasting tranquility can be obtained. In an eternal
universe, who knows how unthinkably long it will be before
another galaxy sprouts up somewhere someday and another
planet is formed, where another innocent, naive, and zealous Joe
Holman comes around again, asking the same questions and
learning the same lessons. (JH)


* For a little more on my pre-conversion background,
click here.

  1. gravatar

    # by tiny robot - May 1, 2008 11:55 AM

    Wow, thanks for sharing your story. It's heartening to know that other people struggle with the notions of religion and god and have (had) trouble letting go. I'm still in the "middle" of things, not knowing if I can let go or not. I figure I'll be ready when I'm ready.

  2. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - May 2, 2008 12:26 AM

    Thanks, tr. Yes, there's a lot more thinking going on in the world, despite what the religiots and fundys would have us believe. There is a light at the end of that proverbial tunnel!

    Just give yourself time and you'll sail right through your current beliefs, and looking back, you'll be amazed you ever gave them a second thought.

    :-)

    (JH)

  3. gravatar

    # by The Burnette Family - May 15, 2008 1:36 PM

    Joe, I just sent you an e-mail, but I'm also a former conservative minister turned athiest. Although I'm a minister in the Unitarian Universalist Association, I focus more on social justice issues than dogma, as does the UUA. Your post is encouraging. Thank you.

  4. gravatar

    # by Melanie - May 22, 2008 5:31 PM

    Your story sounds so much like mine.
    I got to this link by revisiting an email someone sent to me several years ago. I was in that avid Christian stage like you, but this person saw the rational person inside of me, and tried to help me. I, of course, considered him an infidel and went about my happy days. But several years later, I realized my religion WAS bunk and that it was NOT rational... and now I am an avid atheist myself.

  5. gravatar

    # by Andrew - June 4, 2008 4:51 PM

    Joe, with all due respect, I simply do not believe your account of your deconverion.

    Mainly because I question your integrity: you have admitted that you continued to preach even after you were an atheist to collect a paycheck.

    So you were willing to lie.

    So how do we know what to believe of all your reports?

  6. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - June 5, 2008 3:06 AM

    Andrew said...

    "Joe, with all due respect, I simply do not believe your account of your deconverion.

    Mainly because I question your integrity: you have admitted that you continued to preach even after you were an atheist to collect a paycheck.

    So you were willing to lie.

    So how do we know what to believe of all your reports?"

    My reply...

    Every word is true. I wasn't lying.

    As a minister, I was giving my congregation what they wanted to hear, what they expected to hear, what I was paid to tell them. But what would you have had me do? I wanted to hold onto my faith.

    You'd have done the same in my position. Besides, had I been dishonest, I would never have resigned, but would have kept drawing a paycheck. That would have been easier, wouldn't it?

    It was theists like you who had it so that no atheists could testify in trials 50 years ago. If only atheists saw a murder, the criminal would go free. Why? Because nothing we say can be trusted? Ok, then.

    Well, truth is, I don't care what you think. I don't care what you believe. Be well. Go with God. Jesus loves you.

    (JH)

  7. gravatar

    # by DuckPhup - June 23, 2008 5:07 AM

    Hi, Joe. Welcome. Isn't sanity a wonderful thing?

    Regarding Andrew's comments... I regard them as validation of one of your main points. His christian mind-set renders him oblivious to the obvious.

    With regard to Andrew's "Mainly because I question your integrity: you have admitted that you continued to preach even after you were an atheist to collect a paycheck. So you were willing to lie."

    That caused me to laugh-out-loud. Every preacher who ever stood at the pulpit and delivered a sermon has lied... consistently... repeatedly... albeit (for most) unknowingly. In a gradual process of intellectual awakening, you became aware that you were (and had been) lying... until there came a point where your innate honesty could no longer permit you to do so. In other words... you caught yourself in a lie... and then you 'fessed up.

    Andrew should not be chastising and criticizing you... he should be using you as a role-model for the quality of 'character'.

  8. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - June 24, 2008 5:21 AM

    DuckPhup said...

    "Hi, Joe. Welcome. Isn't sanity a wonderful thing?"

    My reply...

    Thanks! That it is! It's a wonderful enough thing to make you wanna take in the fresh air and look to the good times--even with the likes of the "Andrews" of this world!

    One thing's for damn sure--no more lying! :B

    (JH)

  9. gravatar

    # by surgeon - July 25, 2008 10:13 AM

    Dear Joe,

    I have been reading your website along with others for several months. I was particularly attracted to your site and Farrell Till's site because you both came from the same christian tradition as I.

    Now that I no longer believe in the inerrancy of the bible, life makes sense and so much stress is gone from my life. It is hard to believe that I was sooo gullible for so long. Thanks for pointing the way.

  10. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - July 26, 2008 9:52 PM

    Thanks, Surgeon.

    Yes, that comical feeling of looking back and wondering how we ever believed such tales is sure refreshing, isn't it?

    (JH)

  11. gravatar

    # by Kate Farris - August 8, 2008 2:05 AM

    This post has been removed by the author.
  12. gravatar

    # by Kate Farris - August 8, 2008 2:05 AM

    hello joe,
    i came across a reference to this site while reading an amazon.com review on "the purpose driven life". i myself have struggled with the same issues.. esp. the contradiction between a loving God and a punishing God. I have friends from different religions - Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. - and can't help but notice that we are all the same. this is probably why i feel very uncomfortable with fundamentalist christianity that casts down all other religions. I believe that God is more loving and compassionate that anyone can imagine and this simplistic message of heaven and hell does not do justice to this love. William Blake's "The Divine Image" pretty much sums up what I believe in.

  13. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - August 8, 2008 3:17 AM

    Hi, Kate.

    Remember that there are so, SO many more issues than the one you bring up. I recommend getting my book and reading it through. Input from a broadminded theist is most welcomed!

    :-)

    (JH)

  14. gravatar

    # by Anthony - September 6, 2008 1:40 AM

    Joe, I really appreciated your deconversion story. Like you I had no intensions on leaving the faith, it was the last thing that I wanted to do. It was the issues of historical criticism (Enns and Kenton Sparks books destroyed inerrancy for me) and coming to believe in evolution (thanks to Darrel Falk) that caused me to lose confidence in the Bible and the Christian faith. All three authors are evangelicals but it was the implications of what they taught that finally made me realize that Christianity was untrue. I consider myself a "soft agnostic" but very much leaning in the direction of "soft atheism."

  15. gravatar

    # by proxynomon - September 18, 2008 1:04 AM

    Hi Joe,
    I'm a minister too, and really struggling right now - though my story is different to yours, my theistic and biblical beliefs are at breaking point. But how is everything going with your wife and family (sorry if you've answered this in another post, just point me to it). That is my single biggest fear right now...I am genuinely happy in my ministry, family, friends and life...should I perhaps stop ministry but maintain the charade for the sake of my family? Thanks.

  16. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - September 23, 2008 1:16 AM

    proxynomon said...

    "Hi Joe,
    I'm a minister too, and really struggling right now - though my story is different to yours, my theistic and biblical beliefs are at breaking point. But how is everything going with your wife and family (sorry if you've answered this in another post, just point me to it). That is my single biggest fear right now...I am genuinely happy in my ministry, family, friends and life...should I perhaps stop ministry but maintain the charade for the sake of my family? Thanks."


    My reply...

    My heart goes out to you for your having to go through this struggle. I've certainly been there and know how awful it is--and it gets worse before better, believe me! And sometimes it never gets better, period!

    http://ministerturnsatheist.blogspot.com/2008/03/atheism-family.html

    My wife and I are divorced now. Just didn't work out.

    My advice is, listen to yourself. When the time comes to leave the charade, you'll be so at your wits' end that you'll have to. You won't be able to take it anymore. I waited as long as I could, and then the breaking point arrived.

    Try and ride easy and line up a new career and all that good stuff, and then make a break for it. No need to rush at all.

    Best of luck. Do let me know how things go.

    (JH)

  17. gravatar

    # by Brooketo - November 17, 2008 9:10 AM

    Joe-
    I grabbed a Bible to verify some of your statements for validity, and heres what i got at just the first look. You said "For instance, one passage says Ahaziah was 22 years old when
    he began to reign and another passage says he was forty two (2
    Kings 8:26 vs. 2 Chronicles 22:2). One text has Josiah dying in
    Megiddo and another has him dying in Jerusalem (2 Kings
    23:29-30 vs. 2 Chronicles 35:24)" Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 reference Ahaziah as being 22. In 2 Kings 23:29 it says that Josiah was wounded and killed in Megiddo, and transported to Jerusalem for burial. In 2 Chronicles 35, it says that he was wounded in Megiddo and died on the way to Jerusalem. Technically, if he were fatally wounded in Megiddo, it was the place he was killed, whether he died on the way or not. All you have to do is crack the book to see you made those things up, which is absurd since its so easily checked. I doubt you were ever a minister. I'll correct the rest of your misinformation later.

  18. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - November 18, 2008 4:57 PM

    Brooketo said...

    "Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 reference Ahaziah as being 22."


    My reply...

    Depends on if you're using a newer Bible translation, doesn't it?

    The translations (all except very modern ones) don't correct the error found in manuscripts as far back as we can go.

    Brooketo said...

    "In 2 Kings 23:29 it says that Josiah was wounded and killed in Megiddo, and transported to Jerusalem for burial. In 2 Chronicles 35, it says that he was wounded in Megiddo and died on the way to Jerusalem. Technically, if he were fatally wounded in Megiddo, it was the place he was killed, whether he died on the way or not. All you have to do is crack the book to see you made those things up, which is absurd since its so easily checked.


    My reply...

    2 Kings 23:30: "And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem."

    I really am sorry it's so hard for you to read, but I'll give a little help. If I say that I carried your body limp from San Antonio then that doesn't mean that whatever caused you to go limp started in San Antonio and later made you limp. Use some common sense, fucknut.

    Brooketo said...

    I doubt you were ever a minister.


    My reply...

    http://www.swsbs.edu/

    That's where I graduated from.

    I preached for Blanco Hills, Hubbard, West Side, and College Hill churches of Christ. It's a small thing to verify that.

    Brooketo said...

    I'll correct the rest of your misinformation later.


    My reply...

    You do that!

    (JH)

  19. gravatar

    # by Brooketo - November 19, 2008 9:13 AM

    I don't think you understand. First of all, here's what I said:

    "In 2 Kings 23:29 it says that Josiah was wounded and killed in Megiddo, and transported to Jerusalem for burial."

    And then you said:

    "2 Kings 23:30: "And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem." I really am sorry it's so hard for you to read."

    You just restated what I said. You argued for me. And by the way, syntax is translated differently in different languages, which was the point I was trying to make. Essentially, both texts contain enough of the exact same information to be sure they compliment eachother. Besides, you lied- neither text states Josiah died in Jerusalem.

    Also, I don't know which 'secret ancient version' of the Bible YOU think you have access to, but every Bible I've seen- including King James from 1912- states that Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign.

    Your grasping at straws. I just wanted your readers to know that you were either lieing about the Bible, which makes you untrustworthy, or ignorant to basic fact, which makes you sad. Either way, a happy person wouldn't feel compelled to make case against God. I'm sorry for you, truely I mean that.

    By the way, who calls someone a 'fucknut'? That was uncalled for.

    Brooke

  20. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - November 19, 2008 5:41 PM

    Okay, Brooke, let's look at this again...

    2 Chronicles 35:23-24. “And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.”

    Vs.

    2 Kings 23:29-30. “In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him. And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father’s stead.”


    From the first passage, we get the gist of what happened; the king was out to battle and he was mortally wounded by an archer, so he was removed from his war chariot and put into another to be transported back home to Jerusalem. He got there and he died there. But in the second set of verses, we have Pharaoh Necho slaying him "when he had seen him," "at Megiddo." How do we know? Because "his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem." If it hadn't said "dead from Megiddo," you'd have a point. But as it stands, you don't.

    How you can ignore the variations in these sets of verses and say that they are talking about the same thing is beyond me. You can only generalize so much, but there's no translation issues here. The texts are clear and both can't be true. You cannot die at Megiddo AND at Jerusalem.

    What will you argue next? That Josiah died at Megiddo but was revived and then died again at Jerusalem for the final time? You seem to love desperate positions so much. Why not just say that?


    2 Chronicles 22:2: "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri."

    Vs.

    2 Kings 8:26: "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel."


    These are the two verses. I printed them straight from my computer KJV program right into the comments. Crack open any bible. It's there. This is an old contradiction, and any commentaries you can find confirm that this mistake goes as far back as we have access to.

    Many versions now correct it, but many still don't. I have recently sat down with some bibliots and showed this to them, so if you can't find these verses, then I guess you're just stupider than Jupiter. Even Adam Clarke deals with it in his exhaustive Bible commentary.

    Don't know what else to say. The contradiction's there.

    The reason I called you a fuck-nut is because you came to my own site and called me a liar, and it was called for. That knocks at my integrity. Why would I give up making $48,000 a year for half of that and up and decide to make up a verse and say that it contradicts when it doesn't? Can you give me any sensible motive for that?

    And btw, did you check my references? Did you verify that I was legit? Did you not take the time? Or is it easier just to call me a liar and attack my character and then drift back into the land of college sophomore apologetics?

    Please get my book and read it for a thorough look at these things.

    (JH)

  21. gravatar

    # by Brooketo - November 19, 2008 8:04 PM

    Ok.

    So, I picked up 4 different Bibles and in every one of them, 2 Chronicles 22 states Ahaziah was 22. I dont know why you insist on saying otherwise. Obviously, you are happier lieing to yourself and the internet readers than in actually accepting this small detail as fact, and it's baffling to say the least. So I can see that we will get nowhere, if you cannot reconcile this minute issue. That said, I will no longer continue this interaction, as I'm sure there are men of greater integrity to discuss these issues with.
    And I'm sorry, but I will not be purchasing your book, given your propensity for fiction disguised as fact, I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.
    Good luck!
    Oh, and I'd challenge any of your reader(s) to look up 2 Chronicles 22, and find out how old Ahaziah is in everyone ELSES Bible, but just not yours...?

  22. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - November 20, 2008 2:48 PM

    In being an "out" atheist since 2003 and as a Christian since 1994, no one ever - not once - had trouble finding these references, and even I myself found them since the first year of my conversion.

    So here it is, you stupid cunt! You can verify these contradictions between the two passages for yourself...

    http://ebible.org/bible/kjv/

    And here's another...

    http://www.kjvbible.net/cgi-bin/search.cgi

    If this is your way of trying to piss me off, it's working. I have four Bibles I've looked at (KJV, NKJV, NIV, ASV) and they all have it.

    Please learn to check Bible references, retard. It'll help you.

    Please take some cyanide tablets. You'll be doing the human race a favor!

    (JH)

  23. gravatar

    # by GreatApe - December 5, 2008 4:01 PM

    Joe,

    First of all, thank you for sharing your de-conversion story, and in relating to your audience exactly what it took -- and how painful it was at times -- for you to advance your understanding of Truth, Science and Atheism and to turn away from your fundamental beliefs! You have done a FANTASTIC job here and, as an atheist, I return to your story time and time again because it is inspirational in its honesty and in the depth of struggle you went through before you moved away from the "light of god" and found the "true light of science." You are to be congratulated.

    As for Andrew and his argument. I would simply add that all he needs to do is GOOGLE "2 Chronicles 22" and the FIRST two links he will find are 1) from the International Bible Society which presents 2 Chrionicles 22 as:

    "2 Ahaziah was twenty-two [a] years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem one year. His mother's name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri."

    and 2) a link from Christnotes.org which presents 2 Chronicles 22 as:

    "[2] Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri."

    The Christnote.org link also provides the addendum (or rational) for the "transcriber error" below the passage. I have quoted it here:

    "Forty two years — Some acknowledge an error in the transcribers of the present Hebrew copies, in which language the numeral letters for 22 and 42 are so like, that they might easily be mistaken. For that it was read 22 here, as it is in the book of Kings, in other Hebrew copies, they gather from hence, that it is at this day so read in divers ancient Greek copies, as also in those two ancient translations, the Syriack and the Arabick, and particularly in that most ancient copy of the Syriack which was used by the church of Antioch in the primitive times, and to this day is kept in the church of Antioch."

    I don't know what Andrew's agenda is, but it obviously isn't to "search for Truth."

    Your explanation is valid and you are to be commended in your continual search for truth through education, rationality and free-thought.

    Sincerely,

    GA

  24. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - December 6, 2008 6:27 PM

    Thanks, GA. I feel the same way. Don't know how others don't!

    (JH)

  25. gravatar

    # by Dane Eidson - December 29, 2008 6:12 PM

    Joe,
    Thanks for your advice about how to better my blog. I too am taking this opportunity to state I'm an atheist. I got tired of being so undercover. It's a miserable life trying to be an undercover atheist and preaching a lie on top of it. For those interested and if Joe permits me to post the link to my very brand new blog it is http://rantinglunacy.blogspot.com/
    I have other blogs floating around. I got tired of wasting my energy trying to confuse the evangelicals by appearing confused. I figured why not just be honest and go from there. I bought Joe's book. It should arrive tomorrow. I look forward to reading it. Thanks Joe for having the courage to put up this site of yours. There are more preachers out there that are atheists but because of finances and family concerns they are too afraid to "come clean." I know because I was one of them just up until a few days ago. Joe, you are helping many and keep up the good fight!

  26. gravatar

    # by Contented Man - January 20, 2009 12:07 PM

    The names, faces and details are different but we share much in our experiences. I was a Baptist Preacher - very conservative evangelical variety with a strong bent toward Calvinistism. I was a huge fan of the writings of Francis Schaeffer (which I mention only to give an idea of my previous mindset/indoctrination).

    "Saved" at the age of 6 and "called to preach" at the age of 11, I knew nothing apart from the teachings of my faith. My youth was spent (wasted) witnessing in the halls of junior high and high school and then on to Bible College and Seminary - that's when the questioning began.

    Like you and others who share our experience, I put those nagging questions as far back in the recesses of my mind as possible and marched forward proclaiming "the truth".

    I was in my early forties before I allowed the "questions" to take a prominent enough place so as to demand answers. Like you, the answers were not there... or, at least, they were not what I hoped and prayed to receive.

    Today, some ten years later, I am an indescribably content atheist who wonders how he ever believed the childish rubbish of the Bible for so many years. I am greatful that I realized the folly of my empty beliefs while still young enough to enjoy this life - the only life any of us has or will have.

    My son never 'believed'; he didn't even ever believe in Santa Claus... smart kid (young man). My daughter is a believer but is struggling with the "questions" now, herself. She and I will be having many conversations as I share with her how I came to the place I am now. I waited for her to mature to a point where she would come to me rather than me "rocking her world" before she was ready.

    I really like your writing style and I know that your website will be helpful to me in sharing with my daughter.

    Keep up the fantastic work, my friend!

  27. gravatar

    # by Contented Man - January 20, 2009 12:33 PM

    By the way, if I knew how to edit my comment I would correct the mispelling of Calvinism in my former post. LOL

  28. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - January 24, 2009 1:53 AM

    Thanks, Contented Man.

    (JH)

  29. gravatar

    # by Pierre - January 28, 2009 2:56 PM

    Joe, I loved the story of your conversion. It really warmed my heart. While I never believed in a god, I am married to a new earth fundamentalist believer, (Pentecostal) and as you can see in my websites http://www.blog.lodown.net and http://www.humansingularity.net theism is a very important issue to me. I think the skeptic's journey is only halfway until we use reason to honestly question reason itself. The human mind is mired in similar contradiction as that of theism, without doing that. Read about Kurt Gödel and his incompleteness theorems, and the liar's paradox. By the way, ignore what I said about co-authoring a book. I can be very impulsive. Pierre.

  30. gravatar

    # by Janet Greene - February 3, 2009 9:21 AM

    I was very moved by your story. I too was christian for most of my life; until age 32. My dad was a fundamentalist evangelical pastor. It was an extremely dysfunctional family environment, and was a very poor foundation for a life. I have struggled a great deal and I feel that religion is responsible for most of it. For about the last 10 years, I have been on an obsessive journey looking for truth. About 3 or 4 years ago, after a long time on this journey, I suddenly realized that I didn't believe in christianity anymore. It was GONE. All the residual fear (but what if I'm wrong? can I take that chance? I might go to hell?) was just GONE. I knew to the core of my being that it wasn't true. I never felt so free and so scared. Free because the world makes sense to me now; I feel like I am aligned with the universe in some way. Afraid because there is no comfort from a god; nobody to pray to when times are tough, no heaven after death. It IS a scary thing but I agree that this is about growing up and being unwilling to accept false comforts. Thanks again for sharing this wonderful story.

  31. gravatar

    # by Janet Greene - February 3, 2009 9:30 AM

    I wanted to add that I am now a happy atheist - happier and freer than I've even been in my life. I no longer want to surround myself with negative people who diminish the preciousness of life. I read through all the comments on this blog and the name-calling doesn't work for me. I believe that, as atheists, we need to be role models for a life of integrity, kindness and love. I understand the frustration of trying to debate with christians (I've felt like banging my head on a brick wall a few times doing that - lol) but I believe we should never lower ourselves to call people down. I won't be commenting on this site anymore because I am looking for a respectful debated. But I do wish you the best! Cheers, Janet

  32. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - February 3, 2009 3:15 PM

    Janet Greene said...

    "I wanted to add that I am now a happy atheist - happier and freer than I've even been in my life. I no longer want to surround myself with negative people who diminish the preciousness of life. I read through all the comments on this blog and the name-calling doesn't work for me. I believe that, as atheists, we need to be role models for a life of integrity, kindness and love. I understand the frustration of trying to debate with christians (I've felt like banging my head on a brick wall a few times doing that - lol) but I believe we should never lower ourselves to call people down. I won't be commenting on this site anymore because I am looking for a respectful debated. But I do wish you the best! Cheers, Janet"

    My reply...

    Hi, Janet!

    Yes, the mental liberation of throwing off dogma is empowering and freeing. Congrats and enjoy the use of your mind.

    But please, don't fall into the trap of saying things like "atheists are role models." That's not true.

    "Atheist" is not a type of believer or some philosophical persuasion of people who defend a certain set of beliefs. The term just means "no god", that's it. It doesn't imply or suggest any other behavior.

    Me, I have little patience for rude people. I am respectful to someone until they decide to let their bigotry loose. Go a different way yourself if you want, and don't contribute here if you find it not sound, but the "I'm always a lady/gentleman atheist" philosophy that so many start out with is fruitless, and there's no need for it.

    I have other things going in my life, which means I have little time for small-time debates and such. So yes, there will be times when I will "let someone have it." I see nothing wrong with that. But you don't want to be the type of suit-and-tie-wearing atheist who goes around expecting all other atheists to think the same way...

    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/05/suit-and-tie-atheism-and-church.html

    Best of luck!

    (JH)

  33. gravatar

    # by Andrew - March 10, 2009 10:56 PM

    Joe,

    It is amazing how many of us have travelled a similar path in leaving religion by the wayside. I was a Mormon who truly wanted to learn about God and follow the right path. I left the Mormon church because of problems I had with the teachings and the fact that so many of my own questions were unanswered by those who were supposed to know. I was told, as many of us are, that I simply had to "have faith".
    My search for the right religion made me, ironically, less and less religious. It became obvious to me that any gods were a construct of man. It became apparent that the bible, the pentateuch, the koran, the book of mormon, etc were full of lies, half-truths, and contradictions, not to mention the fact that many of the things we are NOT supposed to do were dutifully performed by the "chosen" people at god's behest.

    I found myself nodding in agreement with your own experiences, as they seem so similar to mine, although my conversion was definitely not as extreme as yours (I was no preacher and had not been to a school quite like the one you attended).

    It is nice to hear such stories. I commend you for your bravery - many could not have made such a drastic change. It takes a strong person to admit they were wrong, especially when it flies in the face of their entire lifestyle and leads to the loss of friends etc.

    I wonder though, have your wife's religious views changed at all? Has she become more moderate in her belief? Has she seen your journey and decided to examine her own beliefs more thoroughly? How has this affected the rest of your family experiences?

    With much respect,

    Andrew Jackson.

  34. gravatar

    # by lovethebomb - March 12, 2009 11:06 AM

    Thou fool! Haven't you read the verse that states "the fool has said in his heart there is no god?" JK. I am a former evangelical turned atheist now fuzzy theist. Lota stuff there. If you go by reason alone, I am with you, but I have had some metaphysical encounters which persuaded me of God's existence. I am, however, a "free thinker" and reject both dogma and authority. You CAN find God between the molecules of atoms and not submit and surrender to the slavery of religion. I don't belive in Hell. I don't think God does either. I do embrace the salvation narrative. Go figure. The bible is a bunch of manuscripts that were floating around when they were canonized. Some of it is good stuff. Other bits not so much. I am a FREE man, and a believer.

  35. gravatar

    # by Andrew - March 12, 2009 12:27 PM

    LovetheBomb:

    I am of the opinion that god is a construct of man to provide answers to things of which we have little or no knowledge.
    That said, I would happily change my mind if proven wrong (something few fundamentalists can do, our friend Joe notably excepted).

    It is interesting that you say that the bible has some good things, some not so good. I wonder if that is a defence of the bible, or just pointing out that you can agree with parts of many books, which does not make them holy or right.
    There are things in the bible I agree with - such as the idea of the "golden rule", but I do not need the bible to teach me that rule - that is part of man's morality. The problem is with people who will talk about the "good" aspects of the bible while simply denying all the "evil" ones - murder, rape, slavery (all perpetrated or condoned by biblical "heroes").
    In my opinion, the evil far outweighs the good, and the book can be tossed aside with many other works of fiction that are equally terribly written....

    Oh, and do a little google of "the god module" - part of our brain that seems to initiate our spiritual "experiences". You might find yourself illuminated even further....

    Respectfully,

    Andrew

  36. gravatar

    # by lovethebomb - March 12, 2009 4:34 PM

    I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I am not interested in proving my belief to anyone. Yes, the bible is good and bad. I think some parts are golden divine and other parts man's folly. Well, actually quite a bit more than that. The murder, rape, slavery stuff is evil. God as a construct is ubiquitous. It is the stuff of all religion. God as reality slips in between the slivers.

    Too silly, all of it. I know you are serious and want to know how to place the bible on the forensic table and deconstruct it. As a book, it's fairly weak, but has some good stories. But there may be some inspired passges. The reason you want to eliminate the book from legitimacy is because it is the decoder ring for Xians and if you can take away their ring, then there is no reason to believe.

    Well, you can take away the book, as far as I am concerned. It is not my faith. Woa! Who just said that. I did. It is a scary place to live without a fundamentalism, but free humans have managed throughout time.

    But if you look behind the leaves and the grass, heck if you look INSIDE the grass, you will find God. Unfortunately He hides himself. He is often found in the trash more than at the flowery alters of religion. Isn't that kinda what Jesus was about?

    He went to hang out with the sinners. I like to do that too. I hate church. I like winebibbing.

    If you want a strawman, boogeyman of religion with which to hate and reject God, you need to step outside of all that.

    As a scientist and empiricist, my only mission as an organism is to survive and perhaps reproduce. Anything else you place on top of that is gravy. But I have seen God (wink)

  37. gravatar

    # by ismellarat - April 23, 2009 6:58 AM

    Did you mean these sentences the way you wrote them?

    "Every debate I
    watched or heard, I found that my side seemed to make the
    better points and this bothered me a little because I felt that I
    didn't understand the opposing side's views well enough. This
    demanded yet more study.
    "

    Or did you mean "the other side" had seemed to make the better points?

  38. gravatar

    # by Pierre - April 23, 2009 9:21 AM

    ismellarat said...Did you mean these sentences the way you wrote them?

    "Every debate I
    watched or heard, I found that my side seemed to make the
    better points and this bothered me a little because I felt that I
    didn't understand the opposing side's views well enough. This
    demanded yet more study.
    "

    Or did you mean "the other side" had seemed to make the better points?

    .... end quoteHave you considered that the process of debate may be the problem? Debate allows us to air untethered opinions and make unconfirmed statements. Have you further considered that technology is the even greater problem. Technology of language allows us to identify with concepts to such an extent that we put our "I" in its place as if we take the perspective of the concept. In this way whenever we're "objectifying" we think we're objectively looking down at our "me," but actually we're only patronizing our "me," telling it it should study so as to also become worthy of the machine. After all, the machine is the authority of all meaning because it is the master of technology and language evolves as part of technology. I have a strong sense of this kind of a fraudulent ambivalence in the contemporary cultural picture of humanity. For instance, our "we" are not as intelligent in the way our stories tell us and neither are our "us" born in sin. The whole subject-object reality is in fact bullshit. And that is why debate takes place as if inside the box (of the machine).

  39. gravatar

    # by ismellarat - April 23, 2009 9:41 AM

    I wasn't thinking about it that deeply, Pierre.

    Occam's Razor/KISS suggests that it's more likely that he just didn't write exactly what he meant.

    Before I hurt myself trying to figure out what you meant, it seems I should wait until Joe exhausts the simpler theory. ;-)

    Joe, after reading your account I followed the link to your story about "OMW." I remember reading that last year, too. Great stuff. I hope you can write for a living someday.

    So why don't you look the guy up? What makes you think he scarcely remembers you?

    He had problems with his own kids at the time, and I'm sure he loved talking to you, because your many questions showed him how much you valued what he had to say, in a way that they maybe had not. I hope they've grown up by now.

  40. gravatar

    # by Pierre - April 23, 2009 10:01 AM

    ismellarat said...

    I wasn't thinking about it that deeply, Pierre.

    .....

    I know, but maybe we should, and when we do we should realize we cannot explain our existence, and that our faith in reason is as grave an error as faith in gods.

    Occam's razor implies that we can find the representative essence of information, aka "knowledge" and "wisdom." It leads to all kinds of opportunism and error in the selection of information, which is only a warming up of the process of change. All the different competing (narrow) opinions lead to a vibrant situation of dynamic disequilibrium of parts. Technology wins. Humans lose.

    And it is because of the way we make meaning. See my previous post. It is as if we split ourselves. As agency we believe in ourselves, but we also believe of ourselves that we are very small and subject to the authority of something bigger than ourselves, ... and that is why you think you're supposed to learn and become informed, and then everything will be fine.

  41. gravatar

    # by Pierre - April 23, 2009 10:18 AM

    Blogger lovethebomb said... : As a scientist and empiricist, my only mission as an organism is to survive and perhaps reproduce. Anything else you place on top of that is gravy. But I have seen God (wink)
    ....

    Yes, and you have subconsciously identified with god, and next to god you stand larger than life, looking down at yourself as smaller than life. This is how civilization has humanity by the balls. Civilized dialectics takes place as a result of this horrific ambivalence.

    This horror does not require god faith. We can similarly identify with any concept so as to stand in its place as if taking its perspective and so look down at ourselves. We should take the human perspective instead.

    Examples are: country, economy, progress, power, choice, ... but it includes all words, even simple words, like variations in the meaning of the word "is," as Clinton illustrated.

  42. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - April 24, 2009 12:35 AM

    ismellarat said...

    "Did you mean these sentences the way you wrote them?

    Or did you mean "the other side" had seemed to make the better points?"

    My reply...

    I meant it. Haven't you ever gone through a stage of life where you got into something and started picking up on things so fast that everything made TOO much sense? I have, and I meant what I said. It bothered me that my way was so, so, so, so flawlessly logical to me. That kept suggesting to me that something was possibly wrong, and that prompted continued study. It was a vicious cycle.

    And yes, I may look up OMW one of these days. He still lives over here. Ah, memories!

    (JH)

  43. gravatar

    # by Grace - May 26, 2009 7:27 PM

    Joe, I'm a committed Christian, although not a fundamentalist.

    What do you feel leads the fundamentalists to put so much stock in the inerrancy of the Scripture, or to see the Bible like a modern day science textbook?

    My faith is grounded more in the reality of the incarnation, God's love in Christ. I personally don't think that everyone apart from conscious faith is headin to Hell, either.

    I could be wrong about this, but I think there's something inherent in fundamentalism, that once it's tenets are questioned seems to lead many people to total atheism?

    Realize, I could be wrong about this.

    But, what do you think?

  44. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - May 27, 2009 4:58 PM

    Grace, what leads to fundamentalism is essentially faithful belief in the sacred text. Liberalism and "don't take things too far" Christianiy is a kind of infidelity. When someone truly believes something more, they will be hurt all the more by it if it is found to be wanting.

    As for the incarnation, read my book. That is an old pagan idea. I have no idea how anyone could claim to connect Judaism with that.

    (JH)

  45. gravatar

    # by Grace - May 28, 2009 6:44 PM

    I don't know, Joe. I'm not really a liberal Christian, but not fundamentalist, either. Just ordinary, bog standard orthodox, I guess.... But, am pretty passionate about my faith.

    But, what I think I'm seeing in alot of sharing in the deconversion blogs is a former Christian faith based more in the whole inerrancy idea of Scripture, or the concept of Scripture used as a science textbook. (To tell the truth, I don't even know that this is actually the historic position of the whole church.)

    Then when even one apparent error is found in the Bible, any kind of discrepancy, something like that, the person's whole belief system, and relationship with God begins to unravel.

    I also think this whole idea of everyone apart from conscious faith is headin to Hell isn't too helpful to folks, either.

    It just all seems to me a foundation built on sand.

    I definitely agree that the incarnation did not come out of Judaism.

    What is the name of your book, Joe? I will try to get ahold of it. Hope your poor back is feeling better, too. Maybe massages would help, too.

  46. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - May 31, 2009 10:04 PM

    Grace said...

    "I don't know, Joe. I'm not really a liberal Christian, but not fundamentalist, either. Just ordinary, bog standard orthodox, I guess.... But, am pretty passionate about my faith.

    But, what I think I'm seeing in alot of sharing in the deconversion blogs is a former Christian faith based more in the whole inerrancy idea of Scripture, or the concept of Scripture used as a science textbook. (To tell the truth, I don't even know that this is actually the historic position of the whole church.)

    Then when even one apparent error is found in the Bible, any kind of discrepancy, something like that, the person's whole belief system, and relationship with God begins to unravel."

    My reply...

    Grace, you seem like a wonderful person and certainly an open-minded one, but you don't seem to realize that people have no "relationship with God" APART from holy writ. God's not involved in any personal way in anyone's lives and so when the document that gives us his promises and words of comfort gets put down even a little, then the whole system crumbles.

    Grace...

    "I also think this whole idea of everyone apart from conscious faith is headin to Hell isn't too helpful to folks, either.

    It just all seems to me a foundation built on sand."

    My reply...

    Well, please read Hebrews 11:6. "Without faith, it is impossible to please him." Add to that Luke 12:4-5 and Mark 16:16. These passages teach damnation for disbelief. I don't know why you think you can not believe it.

    I get emailed by so many people who say things like "Just take it easy. Don't go that far with religion." But I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. I don't know why you think you can be so lax with your holy book's teachings.

    Grace...

    "I definitely agree that the incarnation did not come out of Judaism.

    What is the name of your book, Joe? I will try to get ahold of it. Hope your poor back is feeling better, too. Maybe massages would help, too."

    My reply...

    On every page on my site is a visual link to my book. Check it out: Project Bible Truth.

    And yes, massages would be good! :-)

    (JH)

  47. gravatar

    # by sandyjrome - June 4, 2009 4:59 PM

    Hey,, thanks for the affirmation. I think you're a good guy, too. :)

    Are you doing, ok, Joe? Your "Life is Pain," logo sounds pretty dismal..and concerning.

    Umm, to try, and respond to your post..


    I don't know if it's so much a laxit for me,Joe, as it is trying to understand things like the context of Scripture, the overall witness of the Bible, the culture of the time, that kind of thing.

    As a Christian I do take the Scripture seriously, but not always in a literal way. Sometimes I think Jesus does use hyperbole to make a point, or even the use of metaphor, and allegory.

    It seems to me that a loving God made us more than mindless robots. From my perspective,He doesn't force folks into the kingdom, true.

    But, I think there is a difference between a deliberate, and willful rejection of the cross of Christ, and someone who is truly struggling with honest doubt, and sincere questions of faith. I think God honors that.

    My personal conviction is that anyone truly seeking truth, and wanting God, wondering if there is a God, will find Christ, either in this life, or the next.

    Know you disagree, right now, but thanks for listening.

  48. gravatar

    # by sandyjrome - June 4, 2009 5:01 PM

    Ah, posted through my husband's e-mail. Sorry my name isn't Sandy. :(


    Grace. (Becky)

  49. gravatar

    # by Joe E. Holman - June 7, 2009 7:02 PM

    My dear, you are doing nothing but signing off on the annoying platitudes Christians use that so, so irk me..."God didn't make us robots"...pleas about proper "context"...and the ever-tiring "not taking the bible literally" crap.

    Your savior teaches damnation, and damnation for disbelief at that. Damnation for anyone is horrible, period. There's no justification for it, not for Hitler, nor Stalin.

    It takes a cruel mind to devise it, a theistic mind no less, to stand behind it, and it's sad that the so-called "merciful" Jesus spoke of it and stood behind the idea.

    Nuff said.

    (JH)

  50. gravatar

    # by Grace - June 9, 2009 6:32 AM

    Have you read the "Great Divorce," by C. S. Lewis?

    What would happen if someone like Hitler or Stalin,unredeemed, were in Heaven? Could Heaven become like Hell if we all weren't changed to reflect the perfect love of Christ, and yet more fully ourselves at the sametime.

    That's the central point of the atonement for me, Joe. Our lives become hidden in Christ with God.

    Sorry for irking you. :( I think I've been doing a fair amount of this in general recently, unintentionally, though.

    P.S. I want to share, though, although I"m sure you know this, there are a fair amount of Christian believers who are universalists, even including some of the early church fathers. There's plenty of room, and diversity in the church. That's for sure.

    Now off to work.